Controversy about Roger Waters concerts (in Germany)

[KingofCats]

The only arguments I have ever seen about Roger being anti-Semitic, and I've looked for them a lot, always boil down to three things: not understanding the symbolism being used (that pig was being used to criticize Israel, hence why the star is blue, the blue star of David being the official symbol of the State of Israel, and the pieces of paper dropped from the sky in the Wall show also included crosses and Islamic crescents.),being ignorant of what the Wall's fourth side is, or being a case of "DID YOU TALK TO THE BAD PEOPLE ROGER‽"

This is what I want to know. I want to know PRECISELY what makes him an anti-semite. Someone else in this thread said he has a long history of anti-semitism. I genuinely want to know about this history. If he is a legitimately hateful person I can't in good conscience support him or his work.

[BergerSmicerKlopp]

It's probably best to close this thread before someone like me succumbs to the temptation to respond to this nonsense. Music brings people together, politics makes them hate each other. Best to keep the latter out of bounds so everyone can get along nice, like they do at the Bar.

I doubt Roger's anti-Semitism is the motivator here. His anti-Semitic history goes back a long time and they never banned his shows before. But this time he also got on the wrong side of the Ukraine issue and that is outside the bounds of acceptable opinion.

I don't agree with the decision to censor him. We should let anti-Semites speak freely so the world knows who they are. Censoring them only gives them a persecution complex and encourages them.

"His anti-Semitic history goes back a long time..." Really?

His anti-war history goes back along time but please do not confuse his criticism of the Israeli state with an attack on the Jewish religion.

Roger is a humanist and a pacifist, he's objecting to the Israeli regime on human rights grounds and I have never - not in 50 years following him and the Floyd - heard him say anything racist or anti-semitic.

Give us the evidence if you have any. It's free speech and there are many sides... dark and otherwise.

Here's his statement from yesterday: "I want to state for the record and once and for all that I am not and never have been antisemitic and nothing that anyone can say or publish will alter that. My well-publicized views relate entirely to the policies and actions of the Israeli government and not with the peoples of Israel. Antisemitism is odious and racist, and I condemn it, along with all forms of racism unreservedly."

[rontoon]

It's not hard to find references of his antisemitic statements via a Google search. One of the main reasons that one of his German shows were canceled on the last tour because of his outspoken support for BDS, an organization that wants to eliminate Israel's statehood. And then there's the false trope he subscribes to that the Jews control things, something he's repeatedly said. He also compared Israel to Nazi Germany more than once. I don't think he has a leg to stand on.

[ILuvHoney]

It's not hard to find references of his antisemitic statements via a Google search. One of the main reasons that one of his German shows were canceled on the last tour because of his outspoken support for BDS, an organization that wants to eliminate Israel's statehood. And then there's the false trope he subscribes to that the Jews control things, something he's repeatedly said. He also compared Israel to Nazi Germany more than once. I don't think he has a leg to stand on.

It's clear that you either have been reading a lot of Israeli propaganda, and you are repeating a lot of misinformation here.
The goal of the BDS movement is not to eliminate Israeli statehood, but to put pressure on Israel to fulfill its obligations under international law.
Furthermore, even if it was true (which it is clearly not, unless you define "Israeli statehood" in terms of the right to continue their crimes), it would still not be antisemitic because it's targeted on the state of Israel, not the Jews as a people.
Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is criticism of the Israeli government, not antisemitism. And if you read up a bit on the ideology of the Israeli government and its conduct, you will see that such a comparison is not unfounded. As always, any comparison with Nazi Germany will of course be controversial, but it does not amount to hatred against any ethnic group, any more than other comparisons of modern-day states with Nazi Germany do.
On the contrary, what IS really racist is to defend a regime like Israel, which is based on a hardcore racist ideology and operates a system of apartheid, as acknowledged by pretty much all human rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and more. And maybe you should ask yourself precisely why Israel holds the role model position it does among the vast majority of right-wing extremists and racists in the US and Europe?
I highly doubt that your claim about "the false trope he subscribes to that the Jews control things, something he's repeatedly said" is true, considering the clearly misleading claims you made above. I have read and heard numerous interviews with Roger over many years, and never heard him say anything like that. So please give a source - and no, not a link from a pro-Israeli organization which claims that he says something, but from the actual interviews or statements in which he said such a thing. Considering that you claim he's said this repeatedly, it should not be so hard to find if it was true.
I would strongly suggest that you quit reading pro-Israel propaganda sources, and instead check up what Roger actually has said rather than what they accuse him of, and read up a bit about Israel and its crimes - from neutral sources such as human rights organizations as well as from people living under Israeli occupation. It would probably also be an advantage if you learned a bit about Israel's considerable foreign PR efforts (among other things via the Israel lobby in the US, the operation of troll factories and much more) which you have obviously been subjected to. I would also advice you to read up on what the solidarity movements for Palestine actually stand for and what they're really saying, and not what Israeli propaganda claim about them in their smear campaigns against said movements. With all respect, it is clear that your knowledge about this issue is limited and that you would benefit from learning more about it.

[daemonspudguy]

BDS is not anti-Semitic. Being in favor of Palestinian rights is not anti-Semitic. Being against apartheid is not anti-Semitic. (Before you even attempt to smear me as anti-Semitic based on that last point, please note that the policy is literally called Hafrada, which means separation, the same thing that apartheid translated to). I would also like to remind you that some of the most anti-Semitic people on Earth are also Israel's biggest supporters, because they believe that Israel's re-establishment is an important step in bringing about the end times.

[ILuvHoney]

BDS is not anti-Semitic. Being in favor of Palestinian rights is not anti-Semitic. Being against apartheid is not anti-Semitic. (Before you even attempt to smear me as anti-Semitic based on that last point, please note that the policy is literally called Hafrada, which means separation, the same thing that apartheid translated to). I would also like to remind you that some of the most anti-Semitic people on Earth are also Israel's biggest supporters, because they believe that Israel's re-establishment is an important step in bringing about the end times.

Yeah, I have seen a lot of those in online discussions. They are hardcore Israel fans, and are regularly throwing out antisemitism allegations against people who argue against them. At the same time, they may express their intense hatred of Jews on other occassions.
Most Israel supporters are fascists who hate both Arab AND Jewish people. They are white supremacists. Ironically, I am yet to hear any antisemitism from Palestine solidarity activists - perhaps not so surprising considering that the majority of those are left-wing, anti-racist, anti-colonial and socially liberal - but I see a lot of open hatred of Jews from Israel supporters. The vast majority of the Israel fans on the far-right dislike Jews as well as all non-"Aryan" people, but they see the Israeli state as a temporary ally against the common arch enemy; the Arabs and Muslims that they despise.

[keleven]

This is what I want to know. I want to know PRECISELY what makes him an anti-semite. Someone else in this thread said he has a long history of anti-semitism. I genuinely want to know about this history. If he is a legitimately hateful person I can't in good conscience support him or his work.

A lot of great artists have had hateful opinions about assorted groups of people or just behaved fairly noxiously towards people in general. It almost comes with the territory. If we let it get in the way of enjoying art we'd otherwise enjoy, we're only spiting ourselves. Roger is not going to notice one fewer record sold.

To the people replying, "Where's the anti-Semitism? All I see is a guy claiming the only country on Earth that has no right to exist is the Jewish one and that 6 million Jews should be sent away somewhere!" - well, you answered your own question. If you can't find the anti-Semitism in Roger's comments, you can find it in your mirrors.

[daemonspudguy]

Israel is built on genocide, stolen land, and broken promises. Israel is only the "Jewish State" because it decided that it is. The State of Israel is not inherently linked to Jewish-ness anymore than the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is inherently linked to Muslim-ness.

[aybesea]

And this seems like a perfect time to close this thread. It's getting a bit too controversial for a music forum.