Controversy about Roger Waters concerts (in Germany)

[Pittylabelle]

Many cities want to ban concerts by Pink Floyd co-founder Roger Waters. He spreads anti-Semitic messages, critics say. Lawyer Sascha Wolf on whether Waters' lawsuits against the performance bans could succeed.

Podcast
https://www1.wdr.de/mediathek/audio/...zerte-100.html

(In German only)

[Skinny12]

Hi,
This might be the second thread to be closed soon

Not to push it, i will not say anything personal about it, only that i was at many RW concerts and i would not even consider going.

Best
Nils

[ILuvHoney]

The whole case is so ridiculous, and it is pretty clear that it has absolutely no legal basis. Regarding the antisemitism allegations, Roger also criticizes the government in Iran, so I guess that makes him an Islamophobe as well?
As far as I know, the constitution of Germany protects free speech, and there's no doubt that Roger's criticism of Israel is well inside the boundaries of free speech.
I was quite shocked by this case because I did not know that the Israel lobby and the far-right had so much influence on politics in Germany, but there is also no doubt that the cancellation is illegal and unconstitutional. It also portrays Germany - a country with a history of genocide and book burnings - in a very negative light when they ban an artist from performing on the grounds that he has criticized a government like Netanyahu's Israel, especially when his criticism of Israel is pretty much uncontroversial and in line with the consensus of human rights organizations, scholars and international agencies. Some of the world's most famous artists (including "our" Nick Mason) and intellectuals have now signed a petition demanding that Roger be allowed to perform in Frankfurt, putting the German officials responsible for this in a, to put it mildly, embarrassing position.
I can't imagine any other outcome than that they have to backtrack, the question is really only whether they do it "voluntarily" or if they need a court order to do so.

[Pittylabelle]

Hi,
This might be the second thread to be closed soon

Not to push it, i will no say anything personal about it, only that i was at many RW concerts and i would not even consider going.

Best
Nils

I just wanted to put it up for debate as it is currently being discussed here in Germany.

I personally believe that it is a typical German discussion - precisely because of the German past.

Furthermore I don't think certain show inserts are anti-Semitic, rather anti Israeli Government Decisions.

But why "soon closed"? Because of the politics?

[Skinny12]

Just because it might get hot soon…we had these discussion sometimes at Y! and most if not all got closed at some stage…

Anyway if it stays civil, all is good.

Best Nils

[MrFender]

I say let him perform and damn himself. He's his own worst enemy (sorry Dave, you're only #2).

[gotta_be_crazy]

Talking politics is always near a battle of words, to quote our own beloved band. My opinion is that his comments are not against the common Israeli citizen, nor even against the jewish culture, it's against Israel's government, or against the Sionist group to be fair. To me it's pretty clear and I can tell the difference. I mean, we all know how USA and European governments, historically, have occupied any bit of land that would have any trace of oil or any other mineral that can make them richer and have more power. But I can tell a simple citizen from a government. I have many friends from USA and Europe and I know they ARE NOT the government or the economic/military power I criticize, I know they are not the enemy, I know I'm not the enemy, we´re common people with our own thoughts and ideas, trying to get along. And I respect that. If we can tell that difference then it's fine and we can debate about anything. The trick is, we need to understand we're all humans, from the same race, so we're all on the same ship. We are born on an specific piece of land by casualty. I was born in Argentina by casualty, I didn't choose, in any case, my parents did (damn them!!! ). And, above all, please, just don't be a fan of anything. Being a fan of anything cuts all the fun and makes you 'look pretty ugly'.

[aybesea]

As far as I know, the constitution of Germany protects free speech

Yes, and it seems that they are still allowing/protecting free speech. But that's not even close to the same as a "jury of public opinion". In that one, RW seems to be crashing magnificently.

I certainly won't be buying any RW tickets.

[ILuvHoney]

I just wanted to put it up for debate as it is currently being discussed here in Germany.

I personally believe that it is a typical German discussion - precisely because of the German past.

Furthermore I don't think certain show inserts are anti-Semitic, rather anti Israeli Government Decisions.

But why "soon closed"? Because of the politics?

Well, precisely because of the German past and Germany's later attempt to distance itself from the past, I find it very odd that they are censoring criticism of a regime like Israel.

This is a government whose finance minister (a self-described fascist) just enouraged a huge pogrom with the tacit support of the army (described as a pogrom even by the Israeli army chief in the region), which in many ways was reminiscent of the Kristallnacht which I would assume that Germany remembers. It's a regime who occupies the land of another people, settles its own dominant ethnic group on occupied land and systematically steals resources (oil, water, land etc) from occupied land (acting on a Lebensraum vision, which Germany should also be familiar with). It's a regime whose ideology is based on a supremacist belief that their people have a God-given right to land under its occupation and therefore they have "right" to occupy it and do whatever they want there. It's a country created through the ethnic cleansing of a large part of the original population, which it still doesn't allow to return, and instead encourages immigration from other ethnic groups which it considers more desirable in order to alter the demographic composition. It is a regime whose leaders refer to a whole people as "terrorists", which is reminiscent of the rethoric employed by pretty much all regimes who have carried out genocides. It is a regime whose constitution now declares that the country is the homeland of one single ethnic/religious group exclusively (although numerous live there) and that this ethnic group has exclusive right for self-determination within the territory it controls. It is a regime who is seen as some sort of Mecca by the European and American far-right, similar to what Germany was in the 1930s and South Africa in the 1970s. It is a regime ruled by outright criminals, where several ministers have a history of terrorism, while others (including the prime minister) are clinging to power in order to prevent prosecution for corruption and other crimes. It is a regime that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and even the Israeli B'Tselem describes as an apartheid regime. It's a regime whose occupation soldiers are constantly harrassing the people living under their occupation. It's a regime where the base of the government's support primarily rests with illegal settlers, ultra-conservative religious groups, outright criminals, fascists, and people from the armed forces and security services.

If Germany wants the world to believe that its efforts to distance itself from its Nazi past, a regime like Israel is clearly one that they would try to prevent being associated with. I am not saying that Israel's crimes are equal to those of Nazi Germany, but I think it's fair to say there are enough parallels to say that the fact that German politicians want any association with such a regime raises serious questions about the seriousness of their efforts to distance itself from the past. But not only are they supporting this regime but even trying to censor any criticism of it, by banning an artist on the basis that he has criticized the Israeli regime. I can't help thinking about the book burnings and the Nazis' destruction of the art of artists they disliked when I hear this. This is a blast from Germany's past. If the Germans were serious about distancing themselves from fascist ideology, they could instead give Roger a medal for his activism for the rights of the Palestinian people. To be fair, I refuse to believe that this decision reflects the views of more than a tiny minority of the German population, but it is frightening that some politicians are resorting to the methods of Germany's past in order to protect such a regime from criticism nevertheless. I would have been less surprised if this had happened in the US - where there is a very strong pro-Israeli lobby and a far more right-wing political landscape - but to see it happen in what I believed to be a civilized, European country is very shocking, especially when taking Germany's history into account. Have the Germans not learned anything since 1933?

Btw here is a link to a petition (backed by Nick Mason among others) demanding that Roger is allowed to perform in Frankfurt, backed by numerous artists and intellectuals; if you want Roger to be allowed to perform in Frankfurt you can sign it like I and 7600 people have already done: https://www.change.org/p/let-pink-fl...ion_id=1804975 Not that I believe that this alone will change the views of far-right politicians in Germany, but it can at least contribute to put some extra pressure on them to reverse their shameful decision.

[rontoon]

The whole case is so ridiculous, and it is pretty clear that it has absolutely no legal basis. Regarding the antisemitism allegations, Roger also criticizes the government in Iran, so I guess that makes him an Islamophobe as well?

Roger comments many times have extend well beyond criticizing the Israeli government. In Roger's words, "You people need to read more!"

[ILuvHoney]

Roger comments many times have extend well beyond criticizing the Israeli government. In Roger's words, "You people need to read more!"

Do you have any examples?

[ILuvHoney]

Roger just posted a note on Facebook regarding the case:

𝙃𝙚𝙮 𝙁𝙧𝙖𝙣𝙠𝙛𝙪𝙧𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙨 𝙡𝙚𝙖𝙫𝙚 𝙛𝙧𝙚𝙚 𝙨𝙥𝙚𝙚𝙘𝙝 𝙖𝙡𝙤𝙣𝙚
"My lawyers are taking steps to ensure that my concerts in Munich and Frankfurt in May 2023 take place as contracted. Human rights and freedom of speech for all peoples under German law must prevail, which is why I’m taking this stance to ensure the will of the few will not prevent me from performing in Frankfurt and Munich.
I am taking the unprecedented step of appealing to the law to protect me from the unconstitutional actions of two authorities which seem to rely upon the fundamentally false accusation that has been made against me; namely that I am antisemitic.
I want to state for the record and once and for all that I am not and never have been antisemitic and nothing that anyone can say or publish will alter that. My well publicised views relate entirely to the policies and actions of the Israeli government and not with the peoples of Israel. Antisemitism is odious and racist and I condemn it, along with all forms of racism unreservedly.
I am not going to and do not need to keep making my position clear on this issue. I am confident that truth and the law will prevail and that these authorities will not succeed in denying any of my basic human rights.”

[Pittylabelle]

In the podcast, the host mentions that Roger has a Jewish star projected onto an inflatable pig during the show. The moderator conceals, the mainly non-Floyd connoisseurs of course, that the pig has always been used by Floyd and Roger as a symbol for everything. As if someone had picked out exactly what he could use for his anti-Semitism accusation against Roger.

[daemonspudguy]

The only arguments I have ever seen about Roger being anti-Semitic, and I've looked for them a lot, always boil down to three things: not understanding the symbolism being used (that pig was being used to criticize Israel, hence why the star is blue, the blue star of David being the official symbol of the State of Israel, and the pieces of paper dropped from the sky in the Wall show also included crosses and Islamic crescents.),being ignorant of what the Wall's fourth side is, or being a case of "DID YOU TALK TO THE BAD PEOPLE ROGER‽"

[keleven]

The whole case is so ridiculous, and it is pretty clear that it has absolutely no legal basis. Regarding the antisemitism allegations, Roger also criticizes the government in Iran, so I guess that makes him an Islamophobe as well?
As far as I know, the constitution of Germany protects free speech, and there's no doubt that Roger's criticism of Israel is well inside the boundaries of free speech.
I was quite shocked by this case because I did not know that the Israel lobby and the far-right had so much influence on politics in Germany, but there is also no doubt that the cancellation is illegal and unconstitutional. It also portrays Germany - a country with a history of genocide and book burnings - in a very negative light when they ban an artist from performing on the grounds that he has criticized a government like Netanyahu's Israel, especially when his criticism of Israel is pretty much uncontroversial and in line with the consensus of human rights organizations, scholars and international agencies.

It's probably best to close this thread before someone like me succumbs to the temptation to respond to this nonsense. Music brings people together, politics makes them hate each other. Best to keep the latter out of bounds so everyone can get along nice, like they do at the Bar.

I doubt Roger's anti-Semitism is the motivator here. His anti-Semitic history goes back a long time and they never banned his shows before. But this time he also got on the wrong side of the Ukraine issue and that is outside the bounds of acceptable opinion.

I don't agree with the decision to censor him. We should let anti-Semites speak freely so the world knows who they are. Censoring them only gives them a persecution complex and encourages them.