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**rontoon** · 07-28-2024, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by GiveBirthToSmile View Post

...it is clear that the live album is a Frankenstein-like monster of a show and it doesn't represent the wall shows that well.

I don't agree that this release doesn't represent a Wall show. It very faithfully represents the show, just not a single uncut performance.

**svaerige** · 07-28-2024, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by GiveBirthToSmile View Post

...it is clear that the live album is a Frankenstein-like monster of a show and it doesn't represent the wall shows that well...

the title of the album is - Is There Anybody Out There? • The Wall Live 1980-81

it's not Live At Somewhere specifically - isn't it ?

do you have the same complaints about Delicate Sound Of Thunder and P•U•L•S•E not video release versions ?

**keleven** · 07-28-2024, 03:28 PM

They were doing these shows to a click-track to sync to the films and puppets, hardly much material variation from one show to the next to make a difference, except for the one or two shows the wall-building was behind and they had to do an extended Last Few Bricks.

**NuffM** · 07-28-2024, 04:22 PM

RE: the click-track and "hardly much material variation from one show to the next" — There was no click track for Thin Ice, Mother, Blue Sky for 1980, Last Few Bricks, Cruel World, Hey You, Run Like Hell or Outside The Wall. And...to say there is little variation between shows is just not true at all. The amount of energy that each member puts in varies between shows. Sometimes neither Roger nor David are having good vocal nights. Sometimes their delivery is completely different. Sometimes the tones are different, or there is something unusual with the microphones/PA in an interesting way, such as Roger's acoustic on February 14th 1981 being distorted, or David's mic in Run Like Hell on August 4th and 5th 1980 being passed through a pass filter with distortion on it. In some shows the solos can suck, and in others they can be mindblowing. Of course with songs like Thin Ice, Blue Sky, etc. there isn't as much variation, but those are grounded tracks that don't really have any room for variation anyway. The shows where it's a combination of amazing, unique phrasing and delivery (February 20th 1981 WSWDN and Brick 3, Roger sounds PISSED. and it ADDS so much), great solos, great energy, few technical problems and a great atmosphere, THOSE shows are among the absolute best. You cannot compare a godlike performance such as June 14th 1981 to a really crappy performance such as February 13th 1981, or February 28th 1980. Those shows have their moments but overall do not come close to the best shows of the tour. There is certainly variation and of course you're not going to hear that variation if you only listen to the live album or the few famous shows of the tour such as February 28th 1980, August 6th 1980 or the garbage Earls Court VHS.

I really do not believe that the live album is a true faithful document of the tour. The live album is putting together an incredibly polished, seemingly perfect, flawless performance that never existed. Just some things I really hate about it: the second MC atmos speech is so unrealistically cut off. In the live shows, Yudman would be speaking anywhere between 4-5 minutes usually, and then you hear the band tuning, the drum stick count in, and THEN he gets interrupted. In the live album, there is none of that. He isn't even a minute into his speech before he is just CUT off. Literally like a splice. Another is that they screwed with the sound effects, such as the teacher laugh where Guthrie literally replaced where it originally went. In the live shows there is a very distinct rhythm, and Guthrie chose to have it play a second later than it should. That's a small nitpick, but I really do hate it. Another thing I hate is the Numb solo. Come on!!! The night of the guitar is changing every few seconds. I don't believe there was ever a perfect Numb solo on that tour, but June 14th 1981 is perhaps the best. They used that performance as the general backing track for Numb, and included a lot of it in the solo. They should have just kept the entire thing as that one show. It's almost like Guthrie went ahead and thought "well, I got this monumental song in rock history, how can I do my absolute most with this in a way that makes it unidentifiable for any nerds that try to decipher it?". That definitely wasn't his thoughts, but damn it feels like it. This Numb solo + the ending of Gilmour's Brick 2 solo is just really unfaithful to how he plays guitar. Gilmour woule NEVER play something like that, ever. As a guitarist who idolizes Gilmour as a guitarist and musician, those two edits really piss me off. Another thing with Numb, Roger's first verse is literally changing nights every single breath. If you don't believe me, go listen for yourself. Pull up the first 45 seconds from the 14th, 16th and 17th and try to play them side by side with the live album and try to piece it together like a puzzle. It is such an unnecessary pain in the ass.

Also, the amount of pitch correction on this release is absurd. Sure, it's common practice to pitch correct and merge different shows together for a live release, but there is pitch correction on every single song that Roger has vocal parts in, except for Flesh 1 and Thin Ice. This is a big nitpick for me but regardless. I've also noticed no correction on Gilmour's vocals lol. shocker.

I've said so much about this already, but I want to make a comment on how the album was mixed and mastered. Man it is such a mess. What's with that PA problem in "hey teacher"? What's with the UNGODLY loud hiss in David's microphone in Mother? What's with all of the crackling and clipping in Numb? What's with the (another) loud hiss in Nobody Home and Vera? This was 1999, but there were still methods even then to reduce the hiss that is heard all through this release. The clipping is a mixing error. Analog and digital clipping are easy to tell apart from each other and the very subtle clipping in Numb screams mixing problems, to me. Also, the roto-toms in Happiest Days are RUINED. Listen to any live show and there is a clear roto-tom sound. That sort of flimsy but tight sounding plastic sound. In the live album, Guthrie made them sound like regular toms on a drum kit. This is another huge gripe I have. Another thing is just how many nights can be going on in one single moment. In One Of My Turns, Roger's lines are changing nights literally AS the words are leaving his mouth. Why??? ONE MORE THING. THE PIG SPEECH!!! Roger doesn't even MENTION the pig ANYWHERE in the live album, yet he did in every single show. Why would you remove that? Because we can't *see* it? We can hear laughing, explosions, a plane, crowd cheers at moments like Gilmour on the wall, or when Brick 2 comes (which btw, rarely happened, because Brick 2 and Happiest Days are connected), and so many moments like that where you would typically need to SEE what is going on. There is no excuse to omit mention of the pig entirely.

I really do not believe that the live album is a true and faithful representation of the shows that were held. Anybody is inclined to disagree, I feel strongly about my opinions here and I know so many people that do agree. I'm saying this as somebody who has listened to every show more than once, and dozens of times for a good chunk of them.

My 2 cents. or 3.

**TheMoebLoop** · 07-28-2024, 04:28 PM

Though somewhat contradictory with what I said elsewhere (we live to survive our paradoxes, as a poet once said), I happen to agree with rontoon that the release does represent a Wall performance in a faithful manner (my caveat is that it only does so from a conceptual standpoint); post-1972 live Floyd never were about the primacy of musical variation, as we know, but rather integration of that aspect into a larger whole, and, since ITAOT does not worry about any performance in particular, it is what it is.

Personally, I'm not into a what-if exercise (by design to prevent frustration, because I cannot have those damn tapes and make my own version!), but, if I were to pick an alternative scenario, using the possibilities of the digital realm with more parsimony, while choosing specimens in a holistic approach would have provided a more realistic and enjoyable listening experience. Ultimately, ITAOT seems geared for those who don't really have that high a level of interest, anyway.

**rontoon** · 07-28-2024, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by NuffM View Post

RE: the click-track and "hardly much material variation from one show to the next" — There was no click track for Thin Ice, Mother, Blue Sky for 1980, Last Few Bricks, Cruel World, Hey You, Run Like Hell or Outside The Wall. And...to say there is little variation between shows is just not true at all. The amount of energy that each member puts in varies between shows. Sometimes neither Roger nor David are having good vocal nights. Sometimes their delivery is completely different. Sometimes the tones are different, or there is something unusual with the microphones/PA in an interesting way, such as Roger's acoustic on February 14th 1981 being distorted, or David's mic in Run Like Hell on August 4th and 5th 1980 being passed through a pass filter with distortion on it. In some shows the solos can suck, and in others they can be mindblowing. Of course with songs like Thin Ice, Blue Sky, etc. there isn't as much variation, but those are grounded tracks that don't really have any room for variation anyway. The shows where it's a combination of amazing, unique phrasing and delivery (February 20th 1981 WSWDN and Brick 3, Roger sounds PISSED. and it ADDS so much), great solos, great energy, few technical problems and a great atmosphere, THOSE shows are among the absolute best. You cannot compare a godlike performance such as June 14th 1981 to a really crappy performance such as February 13th 1981, or February 28th 1980. Those shows have their moments but overall do not come close to the best shows of the tour. There is certainly variation and of course you're not going to hear that variation if you only listen to the live album or the few famous shows of the tour such as February 28th 1980, August 6th 1980 or the garbage Earls Court VHS.

I really do not believe that the live album is a true faithful document of the tour. The live album is putting together an incredibly polished, seemingly perfect, flawless performance that never existed. Just some things I really hate about it: the second MC atmos speech is so unrealistically cut off. In the live shows, Yudman would be speaking anywhere between 4-5 minutes usually, and then you hear the band tuning, the drum stick count in, and THEN he gets interrupted. In the live album, there is none of that. He isn't even a minute into his speech before he is just CUT off. Literally like a splice. Another is that they screwed with the sound effects, such as the teacher laugh where Guthrie literally replaced where it originally went. In the live shows there is a very distinct rhythm, and Guthrie chose to have it play a second later than it should. That's a small nitpick, but I really do hate it. Another thing I hate is the Numb solo. Come on!!! The night of the guitar is changing every few seconds. I don't believe there was ever a perfect Numb solo on that tour, but June 14th 1981 is perhaps the best. They used that performance as the general backing track for Numb, and included a lot of it in the solo. They should have just kept the entire thing as that one show. It's almost like Guthrie went ahead and thought "well, I got this monumental song in rock history, how can I do my absolute most with this in a way that makes it unidentifiable for any nerds that try to decipher it?". That definitely wasn't his thoughts, but damn it feels like it. This Numb solo + the ending of Gilmour's Brick 2 solo is just really unfaithful to how he plays guitar. Gilmour woule NEVER play something like that, ever. As a guitarist who idolizes Gilmour as a guitarist and musician, those two edits really piss me off. Another thing with Numb, Roger's first verse is literally changing nights every single breath. If you don't believe me, go listen for yourself. Pull up the first 45 seconds from the 14th, 16th and 17th and try to play them side by side with the live album and try to piece it together like a puzzle. It is such an unnecessary pain in the ass.

Also, the amount of pitch correction on this release is absurd. Sure, it's common practice to pitch correct and merge different shows together for a live release, but there is pitch correction on every single song that Roger has vocal parts in, except for Flesh 1 and Thin Ice. This is a big nitpick for me but regardless. I've also noticed no correction on Gilmour's vocals lol. shocker.

I've said so much about this already, but I want to make a comment on how the album was mixed and mastered. Man it is such a mess. What's with that PA problem in "hey teacher"? What's with the UNGODLY loud hiss in David's microphone in Mother? What's with all of the crackling and clipping in Numb? What's with the (another) loud hiss in Nobody Home and Vera? This was 1999, but there were still methods even then to reduce the hiss that is heard all through this release. The clipping is a mixing error. Analog and digital clipping are easy to tell apart from each other and the very subtle clipping in Numb screams mixing problems, to me. Also, the roto-toms in Happiest Days are RUINED. Listen to any live show and there is a clear roto-tom sound. That sort of flimsy but tight sounding plastic sound. In the live album, Guthrie made them sound like regular toms on a drum kit. This is another huge gripe I have. Another thing is just how many nights can be going on in one single moment. In One Of My Turns, Roger's lines are changing nights literally AS the words are leaving his mouth. Why??? ONE MORE THING. THE PIG SPEECH!!! Roger doesn't even MENTION the pig ANYWHERE in the live album, yet he did in every single show. Why would you remove that? Because we can't *see* it? We can hear laughing, explosions, a plane, crowd cheers at moments like Gilmour on the wall, or when Brick 2 comes (which btw, rarely happened, because Brick 2 and Happiest Days are connected), and so many moments like that where you would typically need to SEE what is going on. There is no excuse to omit mention of the pig entirely.

I really do not believe that the live album is a true and faithful representation of the shows that were held. Anybody is inclined to disagree, I feel strongly about my opinions here and I know so many people that do agree. I'm saying this as somebody who has listened to every show more than once, and dozens of times for a good chunk of them.

My 2 cents. or 3.

While I respect your opinion, I think that you're too close to this, too invested and know too much of the minor details to be fully objective in this case. Even a huge fan like myself doesn't care a lick about the things you mentioned. When I want to listen to The Wall performed live, ITAOT is my go-to choice on those rare occasions.

**NuffM** · 07-28-2024, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by rontoon View Post

While I respect your opinion, I think that you're too close to this, too invested and know too much of the minor details to be fully objective in this case. Even a huge fan like myself doesn't care a lick about the things you mentioned. When I want to listen to The Wall performed live, ITAOT is my go-to choice on those rare occasions.

The world would suck if everybody was a 1:1 copy of each other, flaws and opinions and all.

**daemonspudguy** · 07-29-2024, 12:49 AM

Following on from what Nuff was saying, a great recording of the July 14th show in its entirety is the one recorded by "G" and uploaded to the Yeeshkul tracker by a user named Willer back when that was still active.

**thespitwasduringmoney** · 07-29-2024, 10:30 PM

i do have to agree with what Nuff is saying, to me it's like the Berlin 1990 DVD; while its good for getting the gist of what that event was like, it's not a wholly accurate representation of it. there are so many tiny little things altered or changed or deleted (sometimes haphazardly) that it sullies the fun once you listen to what *actually* happened.

main difference being Berlin 1990 was one show whereas 1980-81 was an actual tour, it does make a little more sense for them to patch things in from different nights or fix other things, but i can't help but feel as if i enjoy ITAOT a tad less now that i've listened to some of the boots. Rick's keys on tracks like In The Flesh and Young Lust have been all but scrubbed away on the official release, plus as Nuff said some neat bits that added character to the shows have been edited out on purpose (shortening the second Yudman speech, patching together the only two Run Like Hell speeches that don't mention the pig, not using any of Roger's quirky dialogue before Young Lust but patching in an unrelated "GET DOWN, HEY" before the solo which i don't even think is from any show in particular).

i didn't notice any pitch correction on Roger's vocals but if there is then they did a very pisspoor job with it, there are multiple moments on that album where he's not in tune at all like Run Like Hell, Happiest Days, the big long "BAAAAAAAAAAAAABE" during The Trial, etc.

**NuffM** · 07-29-2024, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by thespitwasduringmoney View Post

patching together the only two Run Like Hell speeches that don't mention the pig, not using any of Roger's quirky dialogue before Young Lust but patching in an unrelated "GET DOWN, HEY" before the solo which i don't even think is from any show in particular).

i didn't notice any pitch correction on Roger's vocals but if there is then they did a very pisspoor job with it, there are multiple moments on that album where he's not in tune at all like Run Like Hell, Happiest Days, the big long "BAAAAAAAAAAAAABE" during The Trial, etc.

Both speeches (June 15th and 17th) very much mention the pig. Guthrie just cut out any dialog regarding it.

The get down hey is from August 9th 1980. You barely hear it in the auds but remember that they used multi-tracks. When you record a multi-track, you are getting the raw feed from each individual microphone regardless of whether that microphone was loud, quiet, on or off during the show. Guthrie just simply took the microphone input after the second chorus and boosted it. Same with the "1, 2, 3!" in Brick 1. It's there in August 7th, but very quiet.

All of The Trial vocals are playback.

**thespitwasduringmoney** · 08-02-2024, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by NuffM View Post

All of The Trial vocals are playback.

this i did know but my question is why Rog would use a vocal tape with those off key moments. maybe he thought it was more realistic? maybe they didn’t have enough time to record more than one take? it sounds like they recorded it hastily bc the mic pops a lot (“i always said he’d Come to no good…”)

**Emdy** · 08-02-2024, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by thespitwasduringmoney View Post

this i did know but my question is why Rog would use a vocal tape with those off key moments. maybe he thought it was more realistic?

I would assume this to be the case. A lot of the prerecorded stuff he’s used over the years doesn’t come across as inauthentic or too unrealistic until you compare multiple shows. “Dogs” from his Us+Them tour is a good example of him miming to a badly out of tune performance.

There are some outliers though, some bits from his solo DSOTM and Wall tours were painfully obvious. And then there are the parts lifted straight from the album.

**Frankymole** · 08-03-2024, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by thespitwasduringmoney View Post

i do have to agree with what Nuff is saying, to me it's like the Berlin 1990 DVD; while its good for getting the gist of what that event was like, it's not a wholly accurate representation of it.

Though that was a one-off show, not part of an ongoing tour - and I remember watching it live, with all the technical failures, which wouldn't have made a very satisfying video or LP for the general public. It must've been a bit embarassing for the performers and crew in places, though not surprising given the scale of the event and the fact it was indeed a one-off.

Originally posted by thespitwasduringmoney View Post

i didn't notice any pitch correction on Roger's vocals but if there is then they did a very pisspoor job with it, there are multiple moments on that album where he's not in tune at all like Run Like Hell, Happiest Days, the big long "BAAAAAAAAAAAAABE" during The Trial, etc.

I am never in favour of pitch-correction (or autotune), I prefer a "warts and all" feel. It's almost like being there

There were a couple of bits of flat vocal in the recent Saucers gig I went to but that added hugely to the charm of the whole thing. Whether or not they're really "doing it" (and I'm sure the Saucers were) it gives the illusion of doing so and that's what recorded media entertainment (even live performance recordings) is all about: illusion and effect - "that's showbiz".

Documentation of historical significance is the recorders' and archivists' job.

**Skinny12** · 08-03-2024, 03:01 PM

We had an interesting discussion about how lip-sync here:

https://youtu.be/9R7ISCebNWo?t=3105&si=W43e_7yMgbz8J3kc

Best
Nils

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