Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun - early alternative mono mix version

[svaerige]

as known on March 24 1968 RTB TV Tienerklanken featuring Pink Floyd was broadcast on Belgian television

the original soundtrack for this show was presented in mono and is available on some bootlegs (not to be confused with The Early Years release - there is a newly stereo overdubbed)

only Corporal Clegg was represented by the original alternative mono mix - the remaining tracks are either regular mono mixes or processed stereo downmixes

STCFTHOTS in particular is believed a processed stereo downmix - this track is radically different from regular mono mix and really is close to a stereo mix

however checking the track shows that it cannot be made by simply processing the regular stereo mix

if you count the number of times Roger Waters repeats the phrase The Heart Of The Sun on regular stereo mix from around 2:07 you get 13 (maximum 14) times

on the Tienerklanken version the phrase is repeated 16 times !

(for comparison on the regular mono mix version the phrase are repeated 36 times)

the Tienerklanken was broadcast three months before the final mixing and release of the album

this means that we have a rare early alternative mono mix version of STCFTHOTS

congratulation

[Alanko]

Good analysis! Any perceptible guitar parts in there? Syd played on an early version, I think.

[Audioarchivist]

Hey there...
I don't mean to threadcrap, but a slightly related side note here...
A buddy recently turned me on to this guy on youtube doing A.I. extraction stem remixes of badly mixed stereo or mono recordings to make more modern sounding stereo remixes. He's done some albums by Captain Beefheart, The Cream, The Who, Frank Zappa, and some others... Outstanding sounding work if I do say so myself!
He's also taken a stab at remixing some Pink Floyd. He's done The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn, Atom Heart Mother, and now he's just done A Saucerful Of Secrets. Piper and Saucerful are loaded with extras, b-sides,and more. He's got flac download links for the redone albums in the youtube descriptions of all the related videos.
I have no affiliation with the guy, and not sure if the R&D crowd here is aware of him yet... Maybe I should make a post or two about him?
Definitely worth checking out his page! Worth browsing through and investigating...
Here's a link to his remix of the tune we're talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvRmtup0gaA

but, definitely go look through all his videos to find more amazing fan made A.I stem extraction remixes
https://www.youtube.com/@ant2manbee931/videos

[asdfadam]

I came across this channel too a few weeks ago. PATGOD is really interesting with an updated soundstage. The remixes are able to bring the vocals forward. It's like magic, very fascinating. His final mixes are mastered well too, without boosting the volume unnecessarily. If I had those tools and skills I'd probably never leave my music workstation! The possibilities are endless. *fingers crossed that he's a 13th Floor Elevators fan*

[svaerige]

Any perceptible guitar parts in there?

I can’t say for sure - there are a lot of minor differences in the overdubbed sound effects - but as for the guitar part it looks the same as the regular stereo

[svaerige]

A buddy recently turned me on to this guy on youtube doing A.I. extraction stem remixes of badly mixed stereo or mono recordings to make more modern sounding stereo remixes.

it was his remix of STCFTHOTS that made me check the Tienerklanken version again - unexpectedly that done an amazing result

[Alanko]

I can’t say for sure - there are a lot of minor differences in the overdubbed sound effects - but as for the guitar part it looks the same as the regular stereo

I can't tell what is bass or guitar on the studio cut. The 'riff' could just be a Telecaster with the tone rolled off.

[Gern Blansten]

Good analysis! Any perceptible guitar parts in there? Syd played on an early version, I think.

There is no early version. Syd plays on the final album version. It was recorded on 4-track with the instruments bunched together in mid-1967 at the very beginning of the Saucerful sessions and at the same time as "Scream Thy Last Scream". There are tape box images and recording sheets. People assume that Dave is playing on it because he says so, but it seems unlikely. If any work was done after Syd left, it would have been the final vocal or the vibe overdubs. It's possible that Dave could be playing some extra guitar effects at the end, but there is no record of it being done and it would have been recorded along with other documented overdubs. And in that case they would both be playing on it.

[marksturdy]

I've said this before (too many times!) but for what it's worth I don't think Syd can be on the released version of StC, although he was on the original take.

The tape box is shown in David Parker's book Random Precision. The original take was done on 8th August 1967, consisting of drums + cymbal on track 1, guitar + bass on track 2. The other two tracks were left blank at that point.

Studio documentation Vibraphone and 'voices' (possibly lead vocal and/or the seagull effects) were added to track 3 on 20th October 1967, and finally organ was added on 11th January 1968. Thing is, the organ was added to track 2 - so the original 1967 guitar + bass track will have been erased at the same time. As the tape box still states that the guitar is on track 2 (no indidcation of it being added anywhere else on the tape), the logical conclusion to me is that Gilmour must have overdubbed a new guitar part simultaneously with the organ on 11th January '68.

What strenghtens it for me is the the audio evidence: the LP version has a lot more in common with subequent live versions than the way it was played with Syd. We've got examples of what Syd did on StC thanks to the Top Gear session and the Stockholm and Rotterdam live recordings - all of which post-date the original 1967 session. The basic part he played was similar to the later versions, but with a more trebly, jangly Telecaster tone. What's on the record is much closer to the subsequent live versions with Gilmour. The arrangement in the chorus is also different on the 1967 versions - Roger simply repeats the title, with the guitar following suit, whereas on the album it's settled down to "Set the controls for the heart of the sun, the heart of the sun, the heart of the sun".

If I'm right, the only place where there's a surviving studio recording of Syd playing guitar on StC is the unreleased take 2 from August 1967. However as this was just a backing track, some sort of Frankenstein job would be necessary to complete it, flying in the vocals and organ from the final version. I'd buy it!

[Gern Blansten]

I've said this before (too many times!) but for what it's worth I don't think Syd can be on the released version of StC, although he was on the original take.

The tape box is shown in David Parker's book Random Precision. The original take was done on 8th August 1967, consisting of drums + cymbal on track 1, guitar + bass on track 2. The other two tracks were left blank at that point.

Studio documentation Vibraphone and 'voices' (possibly lead vocal and/or the seagull effects) were added to track 3 on 20th October 1967, and finally organ was added on 11th January 1968. Thing is, the organ was added to track 2 - so the original 1967 guitar + bass track will have been erased at the same time. As the tape box still states that the guitar is on track 2 (no indidcation of it being added anywhere else on the tape), the logical conclusion to me is that Gilmour must have overdubbed a new guitar part simultaneously with the organ on 11th January '68.

What strenghtens it for me is the the audio evidence: the LP version has a lot more in common with subequent live versions than the way it was played with Syd. We've got examples of what Syd did on StC thanks to the Top Gear session and the Stockholm and Rotterdam live recordings - all of which post-date the original 1967 session. The basic part he played was similar to the later versions, but with a more trebly, jangly Telecaster tone. What's on the record is much closer to the subsequent live versions with Gilmour. The arrangement in the chorus is also different on the 1967 versions - Roger simply repeats the title, with the guitar following suit, whereas on the album it's settled down to "Set the controls for the heart of the sun, the heart of the sun, the heart of the sun".

If I'm right, the only place where there's a surviving studio recording of Syd playing guitar on StC is the unreleased take 2 from August 1967. However as this was just a backing track, some sort of Frankenstein job would be necessary to complete it, flying in the vocals and organ from the final version. I'd buy it!

Hmmm, that would make sense. What was added to Track 4? And was there a new bass overdub? I don't have the book handy.

[marksturdy]

Track 4 is 'vocals' or 'voices', can't remember which offhand. I don't think there's actually any bass on the final track - if you listen to the Top Gear version there's a simple one-note bass part underneath the guitar, which isn't audible on the album version as far as I can tell.

[Alanko]

You can get all the bass/guitar tones of the studio version from a Telecaster with the tone rolled off. It never ventures low enough into the bass register to require the use of an actual bass guitar.

[marksturdy]

Addenum - checked RP and track 4 is lead vocal, added 11th Jan 1968, same day as the organ (and guitar).

[Gern Blansten]

I understand now. Very interesting. Somehow I always missed that the guitar and organ were replaced entirely on Jan 11th.

[overdriveauximenes]

David Parker book is really a goldmine but as it has been said somewhere (think Neonknight or Hallucalation did) missing bits, paperworks, various info have surfaced since the book was printed (more than 20 years ago). I may be wrong but if I remember correctly Parker seemed to be certain that Syd's guitar part made it to the final mix.

Was thinking about that, but that would be worth a thread, maybe in the Archives section, to complement Random Precision. Not wanting to bypass the author, but I don't think a revised edition would be published, and it would be nice to have a place where addition to the book could be compiled?

[Hallucalation]

David Parker book is really a goldmine but as it has been said somewhere (think Neonknight or Hallucalation did) missing bits, paperworks, various info have surfaced since the book was printed (more than 20 years ago). I may be wrong but if I remember correctly Parker seemed to be certain that Syd's guitar part made it to the final mix.

Was thinking about that, but that would be worth a thread, maybe in the Archives section, to complement Random Precision. Not wanting to bypass the author, but I don't think a revised edition would be published, and it would be nice to have a place where addition to the book could be compiled?

Some new info are in Glenn Povey's 2016 book. There's still a chance for updated Random Precision book. Also watch out for upcoming Ed Paule 1967 book - due this year hopefully.

[overdriveauximenes]

Some new info are in Glenn Povey's 2016 book. There's still a chance for updated Random Precision book. Also watch out for upcoming Ed Paule 1967 book - due this year hopefully.

Will try to grab one of Glenn Povey's, I must admit I have Echoes which is quite old now. I have read somewhere that a second edition for Random Precision would be quite a challenge to get published, as the market is quite small, but of course that's not set in stone. I have read about Ed Paul's book, which looks very promising. Don't know about the amount of details about recording sessions we would find in it. And probably only about 1967 judging by the title.

[Hallucalation]

Not quite a challenge - when you have people like Charles Beterams!

[TheMoebLoop]

David Parker book is really a goldmine but as it has been said somewhere (think Neonknight or Hallucalation did) missing bits, paperworks, various info have surfaced since the book was printed (more than 20 years ago). I may be wrong but if I remember correctly Parker seemed to be certain that Syd's guitar part made it to the final mix.

If this is so, where does it leave us on the subject? Apart from marksturdy's hypothesis making full sense in light of the until now available evidence from the session's tapes, on a more practical sense, I, at least, have never really heard anything resembling Barrett's style in the released version (and certainly not the way he played it in the live recordings we have with him), so what's going on?

It seems to me that either he is in it, and he was the one who first recorded the guitar part (indeed, a Telecaster with tone knob rolled off) in the way in which Gilmour played it in subsequent years, or the studio recording actually features Gilmour all the way, but no Barrett. I don't think it is the case that both are in it, because the number of tracks were so limited then, and the soundstage is already so heavy with seagulls, vibraphone and that mad Farfisa part; I just never could hear it.

P.S.: the only part which I've always found slightly odd is the sweet guitar coda higher up in the instrument's register, slightly acoustic-sounding; is there any possibility that that is the only remnant of Syd's original part?

[j.vavala513@gmail.com]

I want to say real quick, there is a possibility, no matter how small, that the tracks which you’re assuming supplanted the original track, could have been a drop in or short overdub using the same track and simply be edited in.

Dealing with 4 track, there’s no doubt they used every bit of tape they could.

it doesn’t seem any less likely than an entire guitar track getting recorded but not noted by emi staff in 1967.