PF 1994-04-21 Oakland Alameda County Coliseum Recorder 1 Info Help

[DeepCreatures]

Greetings all,

KingofCats and I were grabbing stuff at Y before it went down and ran into a dilemma on info for the subject concert and recorder number and I was hoping someone in the group could provide some clarification.

"Bigfoot Master" (Pink Floyd and PF Solo Member Audio Torrents - Raving and Drooling) lists the equipment used as "two Neumann KM54's > (unknown make and model but probably a Sony D8) DAT master" taped from the 18th row. This was transferred by "Bigfoot," aka Sandy A., so I tend to think this would be the best info we have. However, the info file also says they think Sandy patched out of the person using the KM54's.

"New DAT Source" (Pink Floyd and PF Solo Member Audio Torrents - Raving and Drooling) gives Panasonic SV250 Schoeppes MK4 w/ Reutelhuber Mod>DAT as the equipment used, taped FOB. Info file seems to indicate this came from the taper as it is called "my master recording."

"Neumann KMF4 mic" (Pink Floyd and PF Solo Member Audio Torrents - Raving and Drooling) provides 2 Neumann KMF4 microphones (up front) > Sony TC-D5M as the equipment and mentions being recorded by The Weasel. The info file mentions Sandy and his passing.

"Master DAT" (Pink Floyd and PF Solo Member Audio Torrents - Raving and Drooling) has NeumannKM254's>TascamDA-P1 as the recording equipment.

Personally, in just listening to the audience chatter I think the "Neumann KMF4 mic" is a different recorder than the other three (3), although the tapers are really close. Audience noise like "whooo," clapping, and whistling come from the left side of this recording instead of the right. Sometimes whistles are very close in the other three and much more distant in the "Neumann KMF4 mic" recording. I believe the taper chatter easily heard on "Neumann KMF4 mic" between Learning to Fly and What do you Want from Me is pretty solid evidence, but would love for someone with better ears and more experience to do a more thorough check though. I also compared this to the other recordings from this date and did not note a match to any of them either.

While this may produce a 6th recorder from this date that we have had all along the main driver was the confusion over the other three sources and (1) what the proper recording equipment should be and (2) whether or not there are technically two (2) recorders among them, assuming Sandy patched a DAT deck from someone else. Proximity would mean these recordings would be virtually identical. The one thing of note, which is not substantial at all, is the extra intro stuff to AD from the "Bigfoot Master" that is not on "New DAT Source" or "Master DAT." There may be some other stuff to catch, but my time is limited for checking such things.

So, in the end, I guess there are three questions:
1. Is "Neumann KMF4 mic" a recorder 6 for this date?
2. Do we perhaps have different recorders among "Bigfoot master," "New DAT Source," and "Master DAT" due to Sandy patching out of another recording rig? Would this even count as a different recorder?? I assume the patch would be on the output of the DAT connected to the mics, so I would lean toward it not being. However....???
3. What is the proper recording equipment for R1?

Thanks much to you all and best regards.

Travis

[KingofCats]

As conscientious and thorough and thoughtful as ever. This is *precisely* the sort of thing that needs to be talked about on this site. Thanks so much!

[DeepCreatures]

Daspyknows, who put up "New DAT Source," replied to a PM I sent him and said "Sorry, no idea on the other sources. Just have memory info on my source."

[ledwhofloyd]

Daspyknows, who put up "New DAT Source," replied to a PM I sent him and said "Sorry, no idea on the other sources. Just have memory info on my source."

I don't know if this helps clear things up for you, but "Neumann KMF4 mic" from The Weasel is a different recording. Seems to be identified as rec 2. As you have pointed out there are a variety of DAT transfers circulating for rec 1. Daspyknows is one of the different versions of rec 1 and probably just made a mistake on the equipment. So I would still say there are 5 different recordings.

[DeepCreatures]

You are right on 5 recorders as I totally skipped over the lack of a recorder 2 from the list when I wrote that initial post. I would be fine if it was designated recorder 2, but I think right now it is lumped with recorder 1 on the list. Even if Daspyknows did make a mistake that still leaves two different listed equipment info files, three if we count his. With the little evidence we have from the three info files left I am prone to think we have one rig and a patch to the DAT output of that rig (being Sandy's recording) for recorder 1. Thoughts from anyone else about sorting this out??

[nipote]

I'm checking again.
I'm still convinced that there is no "Recorder 2". The only difference that may be deceiving is that "The Weasel" has reversed channels, but it's the same taper.

EDIT : about "The Weasel", what I wrote above is half right. The first set is recorder 1 with reversed channels, the second set would actually appear to be a different recorder

[paulrammylad]

I've just had a look at the shows I have and this is what I have from my collection but that could be wrong:

Rec 1

audience recording by Sandy A, aka Bigfoot

18th row center
two Neumann KM54's > (unknown make and model but probably a Sony D8) DAT master
transferred and mastered to cdr by Sandy A. aka Bigfoot
digital out > Sek'd Prodif Plus > Sound Forge > CD Architect
cdrs made by Sandy A given to Easy Ed > EAC > .wav files > Trader's Little Helper (flac, ffp and torrent files)

Rec 2

Source:Audience
Quality:Vg+
Generation:MASTER
Lineage:ANALOG MASTER CASSETTE>CD-R>EAC SECURE MODE WAV>TLH FLAC 8>DIME
Recorded by and Uploaded by:sunvenusmoon aka SVM
Gear:Sonic Studios DSM>Sony D-6

Not sure which Recorder this is:

Title A Lovely Warm Evening

source: audience video / VHS[?] > SHN

Maybe Rec 1?

source: audience / NeumannKM254's>TascamDA-P1>Master>CDR>flac
tot length: 147:30
overall: SUP-

Again not sure which recorder

LINEAGE AUDIENCE ANALOG 1ST GENERATION>NAKAMICHI DR-1(w/manual azimuth adjustment)>
CREATIVE SOUNDBLASTER X-FI HD MODEL #SB1240 WAV (24/48KHZ)>MAGIX AUDIO CLEANING LAB
FOR TRACK MARKS WAV 24/48> TRADERS LITTLE HELPER FLAC (LEVEL 8) NO EQ
Taper Karl Lundmark

Again not sure which recorder

DAT Audience

Panasonic SV250 Schoeppes MK4 w/ Reutelhuber Mod

FOB Center

DAT Master -> CDWav -> FLAC

Rec 4 (nipote)

Lineage: unknow gen. cassette -> Sony HCD-EH26 + Creative SB Audigy SE + Audacity 2.0.2 -> wave -> NeroWaveEditor -> TLH -> flac

Another recorder stated as source 2

Recorded by The Weasel - "Da Weez"
Transferred and mastered to .wav files by D5scott
source: 2 Neumann KMF4 microphones (up front) > Sony TC-D5M - analog master cassettes
transfer: Sony TC-D5M (original record deck) > Pre Sonus Inspire GT > Sound Forge > .wav files > Trader's Little Helper > flac files

Thats what I have I hope some of this info may help out in sorting out which recorder is which

Cheers

Paul

[DeepCreatures]

Thank you nipote and Paul! I have to be out of town for work for a bit, but hope to get back and dive into this in more detail later on. The information you all have provided I'm sure will prove to be very useful!

[ledwhofloyd]

I'm checking again.
I'm still convinced that there is no "Recorder 2". The only difference that may be deceiving is that "The Weasel" has reversed channels, but it's the same taper.

EDIT : about "The Weasel", what I wrote above is half right. The first set is recorder 1 with reversed channels, the second set would actually appear to be a different recorder

To me it sounds like in set 1, "The Weasel" is sitting right next to rec 1, so the audience noises are almost the same, but not identical. Like, as DeepCreatures said, listen right after Learning To Fly for example. There's a person that yells "yaaaaa" like 13 sec after the song ends. On rec 1, the "yaaaa" sounds much more faint than on "The Weasel". Like it is "The Weasel" himself yelling it, and rec 1 is next to him picking it up but not quite as loud.

[DeepCreatures]

Appreciate you checking on this!

[DeepCreatures]

Okay, I finally found a few minutes to get back to this... Since nipote did agree the second half of the show is certainly a different recorder I lent some time to checking over the first set in spots again, primarily between the songs. Below is a few points of comparison between the "Bigfoot Master" by Sandy and the "Neumann KMF4" analog recording that I am proposing we call recorder 2 again. If someone cares to take the time to double check these I feel pretty confident we can say "Neumann KMF4" is a completely different recorder:

1. As already noted, between Learning to Fly and What Do You Want from Me the "Neumann KMF4" recording has clear taper chatter not on the "Bigfoot Master."
2. During the "drone" leading into On the Turning Away you can hear someone seem to identify the song in close proximity to the left channel on "Neumann KMF4." You can hear the same person on the right channel of "Bigfoot Master" but he is considerably more distant.
3. After On the Turning Away you can hear someone talk about being blown away, but the same issue as above occurs: the left channel on "Neumann KMF4" is much closer and to the left, while on "Bigfoot Master" he is more distant and on the right. However, on "Bigfoot Master," right before the guy starts saying "Their blowin' me away" you can hear a person clearly ask "Is Gilmour one of these people." This is on the "Neumann KMF4" recording as well, but it is so distant that if you didn't know what was being said from the "Bigfoot Master" you probably couldn't tell what the person was saying.
4. The talk near the tapers at the end of One of These Days, specifically after Gilmour says they will be back in 15-mins, is very different, to the point I cannot tell if there is any crosstalk captured between the "Bigfoot Master" and "Neumann KMF4."

I believe these are two distinct recorders that were sitting in very close proximity to one another.

Turning the page a bit, I come back to my original point that started all this as well...does anyone have any idea what the actual recording equipment for R1 should be since we have three (3) different listings of recording equipment used?

Best wishes.
ts

[nipote]

Thanks for your investigation!

Regarding the equipment for taper 1, those like me who have been around for a few years know that when cassette exchanges were done by post, to do so, you had to give something in return, if you had nothing, maybe you changed a date or you said it was a different recorder for that date. It happened to me, it's just my guess.